Tuesday, September 16, 2014

5 Things You Should Know About People Opposed to Homosexual Lifetyles



It has always baffled me that for some, saying "I disagree" can automatically mean "I hate you." This applies especially to the issue of homosexuality. I don't think living in a homosexual lifestyle is beneficial for anyone. And because I hold this view, I've been called names, I've been yelled at, and I've been misquoted. But most of all, I've found that people make assumptions about me that could not be farther from the truth. I want to clear up a few of these assumptions, and I hope it comes through in a loving, non judgmental tone.

1. I don't hate gay people.
Nor am I afraid of them. The term "homophobe" means to be frightened of homosexuals. I have friends who are gay, and I love them. I don't agree with their lifestyle, but guess what? There are aspects of most of my friends' lifestyles that I don't agree with. Does this mean I don't love them? I'm against contraception. I'm assuming that a great majority of people I know and love use contraception. I don't agree with their choice to use contraception, and I hope and pray that they stop, because I know it's not the best thing for them. But I still love them.

2. I understand that same-sex attraction is not a choice.
Same sex attraction can certainly be built in, and can be no different than my own attraction to the opposite sex. Most gay people don't choose to be gay. In fact, I have found that many wish they weren't, because of the obstacles they must face. I feel a great amount of compassion for my gay friends because of those difficulties.

3. I acknowledge that homosexual activity is wrong. This is not the same as "judging."
Thinking that something is wrong is not the same as judging. I do think, when done knowingly and intentionally, homosexual activity is not good. But guess what? So is using contraception. And heterosexual activity outside of marriage. And acting on anger. And gluttony. And laziness. Who the heck am I to look down on gay people, when I have a list longer than the Great Wall of China of my own problems? I don't look down on anyone who makes bad decisions. Because then I would look have to look down on every person on the Earth, including myself.

4. There is nothing wrong with having same-sex attraction. The problem is acting on that attraction.
Before my husband and I got married, we were attracted to each other. It's normal to want to have intercourse with someone even if you're not married. There is no problem in that. But that doesn't mean that we should act on those wants. So the idea that "being gay is wrong" is incorrect. If a person has no choice in the matter of having same-sex attraction, how can that be wrong?

5. I don't think your sexual orientation describes who you are.
I hate saying "So and so is gay" or "So and so is a homosexual." I don't like associating a person with their sexual orientation. That's not who a person is. It may be part of a person, but it's not the essence of him or her. People may have homosexual or heterosexual tendencies, but that's not who they are. They are much more than that.

So please understand that many people who don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle aren't haters, or ignorant, or mean, or judgmental, or any other negative adjective you might use. There's many of us out there. But to be quite frank, people with same-sex attraction are absolutely no different than the rest of us. Why is it nearly impossible to have a calm, intelligent discussion on this topic, without name calling (on either end)? I think it's because people on both sides of the fence make assumptions about the other that actually aren't true. Maybe it would do everyone some good if we could step back and look at all sides.

19 comments:

  1. Too often we vilify and marginalize people who oppose us, and of course that isn't fair or accurate. I’m with you that it's important we have conversations about these things - real conversations. I understand your frustration at being called a homophobe or a bigot. I wouldn't consider you any of those, based on this post.

    I hope you'll read this not as hostility, but rather me trying to converse on a VERY touchy subject - one that is directly about my actual life.

    Numbers 1 and 2 are appreciated, and your wrap up about "people with same sex attraction" being no different is worthy of applause! It's true! We are no different. THANK YOU! Some of us want to party and have fun just like people with opposite-sex attraction, and some of us want to get married and have kids just like other people with opposite-sex attraction.

    the thing that stands out here is the constant (and somewhat subtle) insinuation that gay people are pitiful and suffering from a moral (spiritual?) sickness.

    you go to lengths to not actually say gay or bi or LGBT people, but rather "people with same-sex attraction," which immediately sounds a lot like you are saying not sick or dying people, but "people with cholera." you liken "same-sex attraction" to a sin like contraception (baby killing) and gluttony. I see where this last bit is coming from - it's part of your "they're just like us" thing - but it's really very insulting to me, someone who "has same-sex attraction."

    You also take the time to mention "many who wish they weren't" due to the problems it causes them. What you're expressing here is actually not compassion, but sympathy, which is derived from pity, which is something normally granted to people who are viewed to be of a lower station than oneself (the very poor, the diseased, the infirm). This sends a message that people who "have same-sex attraction" are objects of pity, people who wish they were something else.

    Since this is a conversation, allow me to share my perspective:

    You love your husband. So what if I told you that your love for him was unnatural and that you weren't allowed to act on it. Never allowed to start a family with him. But then I told you I know your love for him isn't what sums you up, that you are more than just your opposite-sex attraction. And then I told you that I don't hate you, but I just feel sorry for you and your hard life.

    That is the message you are sent in 1,000,000 ways from the time you are a child, from the time you first realize you "have same-sex attraction." Fearing your parents will throw you out and you'll be homeless (shockingly common). Fear of getting beaten or killed for holding your husband's hand in public (just happened in Philly, straight up the norm in Russia and parts of the middle east and Africa). Imagine the police have the legal right to enter your private home and arrest you for having sex with your husband (legal in most states until 30 years ago). Imagine that the people leading this charge against you doing so on the basis of their religious beliefs in a country that is supposed to not follow religious law.

    That is the life of a bi, gay, lesbian, or trans person.

    Many who don't agree with your point of view on our lifestyle (which is weird, someone who is not a part of my "lifestyle" weighing in on that "lifestyle") get mad because they aren't responding just to you. they are responding to a lifetime of subtle oppression (for older folks or people in less tolerant cultures, overt and cruel oppression). They don't see you, Ashley, mother, dog lover, foodie. They see you, The System, cheerily chiming in to say, once again, that our love is less than others, that our marriages aren't valid, that our lives are steeped in sin and sickness, that we are not One Of You.

    -Kyle

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    1. Kyle, this is a really great perspective, and thank you for saying it in such a nice and rational way! I say that I feel compassion for, or sympathize with, or whatever way you want to put it, gay people because I know they have no choice in their attractions. And I've never been through what they go through. So as someone who thinks gays would be better off living chaste lifestyles, I know no better way of putting it than by saying I feel badly for them. Because I know, whether or not they choose to live chastely, they have a harder life in that regard than I do, and that there are so many people who DO hate and judge them.

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  2. You say you don't think living a homosexual lifestyle is beneficial to anyone. In the interest of stepping back and looking at all sides - have you ever asked someone in a homosexual relationship who THEY think are benefitting? I know I benefit from my marriage. Why would LGBT folk not benefit from their relationships?

    I agree that people with same-sex attractions are just the same as everyone else. But that means I also think they deserve healthy sexual relationships that make them happy, just like everyone else.

    I don't really know how to argue about your belief that homosexual activity is sinful, because we're all entitled to our own beliefs. I can only say that I disagree - it's one of many reasons I have stepped away from Catholicism, actually. I would say though, that I think stating such a belief about something that doesn't really affect you is an act of judgement. Why else say it, really? (It's one thing to say murder is a sin. If I get murdered that's going to have a really negative impact on me.) I appreciate that you're trying not to judge, but I don't feel the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" approach is really free from judgement, especially about things that not everyone believes are sinful.

    Thank you for wanting to have a thoughtful coversation. Hope I was able to make a decent contribution.

    -Erin

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  3. It has always baffled me that for some, saying "I disagree" can automatically mean "I hate you." This applies especially to the issue of Catholicism. I don't think living in a Christian lifestyle is beneficial for anyone. And because I hold this view, I've been called names, I've been yelled at, and I've been told that I am going to hell. But most of all, I've found that people make assumptions about me that could not be farther from the truth. I want to clear up a few of these assumptions, and I hope it comes through in a loving, non judgmental tone.

    1. I don't hate Catholic people.
    Nor am I afraid of them. I have friends who are Catholic, and I love them. I don't agree with their lifestyle, but guess what? There are aspects of most of my friends' lifestyles that I don't agree with. Does this mean I don't love them? I'm against drinking wine. I'm assuming that a great majority of people I know and love drink wine. I don't agree with their choice to drink wine, and I hope that they stop, because I know it's not the best thing for them. But I still love them.

    2. I understand that Catholicism is not a choice.
    Catholicism can certainly be built in, and can be no different than my own views about a higher power. Most Catholic people don't choose to be Catholic. In fact, I have found that many wish they weren't, because of the obstacles they must face. I feel a great amount of compassion for my Catholic friends because of those difficulties.

    3. I acknowledge that Catholicism is wrong. This is not the same as "judging."
    Thinking that something is wrong is not the same as judging. I do think, when done knowingly and intentionally, Catholicism is not good. But guess what? So is drinking wine. And Judiasm. And Mormanism. And Buddhism. And Islam. Who the heck am I to look down on Catholic people, when I have a list longer than the Great Wall of China of my own higher power beliefs? I don't look down on anyone who makes bad decisions. Because then I would look have to look down on every person on the Earth, including myself.

    4. There is nothing wrong with having a Catholic faith. The problem is acting on that attraction.
    Before my husband and I got married, we discussed our religious beliefs. It's normal to want to have the same faith with someone even if you're not married. There is no problem in that. But that doesn't mean that we should act on those wants. So the idea that "being Catholic is wrong" is incorrect. If a person has no choice in the matter of having Catholic beliefs, how can that be wrong?

    5. I don't think your religious beliefs describe who you are.
    I hate saying "So and so is Catholic" or "So and so is a religious." I don't like associating a person with their religion. That's not who a person is. It may be part of a person, but it's not the essence of him or her. People may have religious or non-religious tendencies, but that's not who they are. They are much more than that.

    So please understand that many people who don't agree with the Catholic lifestyle aren't haters, or ignorant, or mean, or judgmental, or any other negative adjective you might use. There's many of us out there. But to be quite frank, people with Catholic beliefs are absolutely no different than the rest of us. Why is it nearly impossible to have a calm, intelligent discussion on this topic, without name calling (on either end)? I think it's because people on both sides of the fence make assumptions about the other that actually aren't true. Maybe it would do everyone some good if we could step back and look at all sides.

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  4. I think it is important to take what you wrote and insert your religion into it. I did this to hopefully give you a different and personal perspective I do not intend malice. This is just my attempt at furthering the conversation and hopefully helping you see how other people may be interpreting what you wrote. I think the Catholic version I made out of your writing is a bit silly and slightly offensive. I assume you will feel the same about it. I hope you can better understand why your writing is affecting other people.

    -Angela

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  5. Someone replied to your blog post with their own blog post: http://likelylinda.wordpress.com/2014/09/18/love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin-a-conversation-about-sex/

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  6. Hi everyone, thank you for putting your opinions out there in a kind and non accusatory manner. It's good to dialogue in this way!
    Here's the main point I was trying to convey in my post:
    Having the opinion that same sex lifestyle is not a good lifestyle does not make anyone a hater.
    Unfortunately, like Kyle said, there are people out there who ARE haters. And I can't stand being grouped with them. I could say, that as a Catholic, there are those out there who don't agree with the Catholic faith. There are even those who persecute, torture, and kill others who are Catholic (it's happening every day in the Middle East). And it has been this way since Jesus walked the Earth. But I certainly don't group everyone who is against the Catholic faith in this category. And it upsets me that when it comes to this very sensitive topic of homosexuality, doing this seems to be the norm.
    The bottom line is, if I don't think that the gay lifestyle is good for someone, I would be a hater if I did NOT disagree with it. But, as we all should whenever we disagree with something, I should do so in a loving way.
    Last but not least, I'd like to be clear about what the word "judgment" means. It implies that one looks down on another because of his or her thoughts or actions. I believe that anything that goes against natural law when it comes to sex is wrong (gay sex, contraception, oral sex, heterosexual sex outside of marriage, withdrawal during sex, in vitro fertilization, masturbation, etc etc etc). But just because I believe something to be wrong does not automatically imply that I look down on those who practice those behaviors. I think losing your temper is wrong. But I lose my temper all the time. So am I judging myself?
    Most of all, rather than having such a negative connotation toward this issue (this is wrong, that is wrong, etc), I want to focus on what is RIGHT: treating others with love and respect. This includes everyone: gay, straight, people who are for homosexual lifestyles, and people who are against it.
    Thanks everyone for your input :-)

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    1. It looks like everyone who commented totally got your main point, and no one here is saying Catholics or religious people are evil.

      But your logic is deeply flawed, Ashley. In fact, I think to "disagree" with someone's "lifestyle" is to look down upon them. You might be passively doing so or even doing so with a loving attitude, but it's still condescension to disagree with how someone loves others.

      This is my attempt to lovingly address the core issue: your point of view on LGBT people lacks real compassion and true understanding. You are dangerously publishing a point of view that is painfully discriminatory and hurts other people's lives without actually understanding the weight of your actions and without understanding the lives of those people you affect. That is the plain truth, no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise.

      Even words spoken with the intent of love can wound deeply if the speaker's vantage point is too far removed.

      -Kyle

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    2. I understand what you are saying, and if you do think that disagreeing with someone's lifestyle is to look down on them, then that's fine, and I am certainly guilty. But so is every other person on this Earth, because who doesn't disagree with certain aspects of the lifestyles of others? This is what makes us all different. You disagree with my lifestyle as a Catholic, one who chooses to live according to Church teachings (to the best of my ability). But I respect and understand that, and I don't view it as you looking down on me. I just don't see how disagreeing with someone is at all the same thing as looking down on that person.

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    3. I think you're making a very broad assumption here: I actually do not look down on your "lifestyle" as a Catholic at all. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for people who try very hard to adhere to a religious doctrine. I've been there. I was a SUPER INTENSE person that way for many years. There are things about Catholicism I don't agree with or understand, but I try very hard to remind myself that A) I don't know everyone, and B) people are different and believe different things, and that is healthy and OK.

      You should be allowed to publicly express your religious beliefs in a nonviolent and non-oppressive manner (beliefs which are probably a choice based on a complex combination of upbringing, cultural norms, and personal experiences). Like with this blog post.

      Your original post was defending those people who believe that gay people (many of whom you believe are born that way) should never act upon and experience love, companionship, and building a family, things that are nonviolent and non-oppressive.

      That, to me, is where your use of the word "disagree" is highly questionable and, in fact, quite oppressive.

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    4. Sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but, really, how can you equate religious beliefs with sexual orientation and identity? One is choice, the other is not. Disagreeing with someone's religious beliefs is not hte same as disagreeing with "same sex attraction."

      I'm not trying to be incendiary: I'm genuinely baffled.

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    5. I think the key point here is that I have no problem with a person "being gay", meaning that he or she is attracted to people of the same sex. In that, no one has a choice. What we all DO have a choice in is the sexual aspect of it, and this is what I have a problem with. Except in cases of rape, we all have the ability to say no to sex. It is difficult, of course. But it is a choice. I would argue that one does not need to be religious to understand my point of view. It's all about natural law and a respect for the body: certain body parts are meant to do certain things, and this applies to our sexual parts as well. This is why I have a problem with contraception and any type of sexual activity that does not, for lack of better words, end up with his stuff inside her stuff. And this view does not just apply to sexual activity...it's about the body as a whole. So this is why I use the words "homosexual lifestyle"...because I mean to say that I don't agree with the sexual part if it.

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    6. Except that what you're describing is not natural law, at least not in the commonly accepted sense of the word. There is no natural law about teh usage of genitals. Many animals practice some form of masturbation. There are numerous documented cases of natural same-sex physical activity among the animal kingdom. Anyway, there are LOTS of things we do with our orifices that aren't natural. We put metal and plastic in our mouths to stay healthy. We put pins and metal in our bones when we are injured.

      When I say "natural law," I mean scientific laws. I think when you say it you mean what your religion dictates is natural for humans. Would that be accurate?

      Except that sex in human culture is not just about procreation and expulsion of waste. I'm not talking about sex for fun or sex outside marriage - even marital sex for teh purpose of procreation is about more than just procreation. Sex is inexorably linked to our cultural ideas of love, marriage, family, intimacy, and connection. I'm not sure if that is OK with you, but that's a fact of modern human culture.

      So would it be accurate to state that you're saying gay people should never experience that? That thing that you, because of how you were born, are?

      Real questions: have you ever had this discussion w/ a gay person face to face? Have you ever asked them what they think all this?

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    7. This is true, what you say about animals. But I have never liked this argument because there is something that separates humans from animals: logic, reason, and self control. We are more than beings who act on pure impulse...we are more than that. There are members of the animal kingdom who kill members of their own kind. Just because animals do something does not make it right.
      We also have the ability to create and make advancements, and that is a good thing. Metal in teeth is not natural, but it aids the body to do something it was meant to do: have healthy teeth. Any scientific advancement that helps the body do what it is naturally meant to do is a very good thing. This is why fertility medicine like clomid and ed medicine like Viagra are good...they work with the body's natural function.
      Unfortunately, I've never been able to have a calm, rational discussion with anyone, including gay people, face to face, because like I said in my blog post, I end up being yelled at and called named before I can get to that point. I understand people's frustration...they are trying to protect themselves and their loved ones.
      This is why I meant to portray love and compassion in my blog post. Because it is such a difficult concept to live by. I feel compassion for all people who have such hard crosses to bear: gay people who have chosen to live a single, chaste life; infertile couples who cannot conceive; etc. But we all have incredible difficulties to live with...some are more visible to others, but they are there all the same.
      I appreciate that you and I could have this discussion, as it is one of the first rational discussions I have had about this topic. Neither of us will change our minds, but it's good to see each other's perspective. I hope that you do not think I am a bad, mean, or in compassionate person by standing with what I believe.

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    9. I appreciate your calm response; this has been very stimulating, and it is great that you replied to the posts here. I definitely don't think you're a bad person, just operating with a very limited worldview. You're using a strange system of logic to justify a point of view that oppresses and hurts innocent people and their families, and you're defending a point of view that denies basic cultural equity to others, which I believe is very much a sin, but, hey, i'm a sinner, too, so I get it.

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  7. 1. God creates people to be gay, so homosexuality is natural and God's plan for that person (why else would he create hia children gay?)
    2. Homodexuality is romanticised love between people of the same sex. I fail to see how love hurts God or other people. How is love wrong?
    3. I will never understand why people use the Bible to condemn people's love as wrong. It is just as bad to use the Bible to justify slavery and racism (which Christians used to do) in my eyes, that is a wrong.
    4. It is the midst of the sexual rights revolution, either jump on the train of equality or stay behind to remain in history as an opponent to equality.

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  8. Good discussion, thanks for hosting it. Here is a question that has vexed me for a long time. If you accept that people are born with homosexuality hard-wired and that it's not a choice, then it stands to reason that God created that person as a homosexual. How can that be? Did God make a mistake, something he didn't intend to do? Or does God create a person with a homosexual inclination because he intends that person to be a homosexual? Can we make that leap, that God purposely creates people who are gay and has done so throughout recorded history?

    Our generation did not invent homosexuality. There are mountains of research data that show around 5% of the general population is gay. This holds true across all parts of the world, all cultures, and throughout history. There were gay people 500 years ago, 1000, 2000, and probably more years ago. There were gay people in Jesus time, and considering the many people he encountered he probably knew some of them.

    There are around 400,000 people born every day in the world, and roughly 20,000 of them were gay from the moment God created them. How can we square that with being "intrinsically disordered?"

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    1. Well, I think we all are born with intrinsically disordered issues. Some people are naturally inclined to have gambling problems, anger issues, alcoholism, etc etc. God does not "create" people with these problems. He allows them, certainly. But God's original plan did not involve sin. So anything bad, or disordered, or any other way you put it, simply can't be from God, because God is only good. It comes from original sin, which resulted in an imperfect world. Some bad things happen because of our choices, and some do not. I actually just wrote a blog post about this recently if it interests you (it's not specifically about homosexuality, but the idea that God does not make bad things happen): http://wannabecatholic.blogspot.com/2014/08/not-everything-happens-for-reason.html

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Feel free to comment! Disagreements are fine, but please be nice :-)